I am a queer woman, mother of four daughters, Joy Warrior, Projector, and so much more! (with Heather!)

Angeleaza (00:25)
Welcome everyone. Today we have a very special guest. Heather, hello, hello. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome. do you mind just telling me and everyone else about who you are and what you do?

Heather Vickery (00:43)
Sure, happy to. So my name is Heather Vickery and I am a transformation coach. What does that mean? It means that I help people go from pressure-filled lives to pleasurable ones with more ease so that you can hold more but feel like you're carrying less. And I do that specifically through tools and resources like human design and NLP, subconscious reprogramming, positive psychology, things like that. So through private coaching groups, retreats, ⁓

public virtual hypnosis sessions, all kinds of fun things like that. I help people tap back into being peaceful and joyful as a form of creating sustainable success.

Angeleaza (01:22)
That is incredible. Thank you so much for that. you have a Substack. I love all of your content. I know you have a few different channels that you manage through your Substack as well as elsewhere. Do you mind just telling us a little bit about those?

Heather Vickery (01:35)
Yeah,

no problem. I really love Substack. that's really the only place I'm active. I have LinkedIn, but I feel like LinkedIn is still a little bit too stuffy for me. Although I have some colleagues who are like, I'm going to show up and be my crazy self on LinkedIn and it's going to get over it. So I do a little of that, but Substack is my favorite platform right now.

Angeleaza (01:40)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Heather Vickery (01:55)
And I am not on any meta platforms. I have deleted all of those, which feels like freedom. So protecting your peace, right? So yes, I have my two different publications on Substack are Radical Ease, which is my business publication where I share as much as I can to help people find little glimmers of ways to move from pressure to pleasure, to have more joy in their lives, to be more connected in community.

Angeleaza (01:59)
Wow.

Wow.

Heather Vickery (02:24)
you know, sometimes it's just sharing. That's also where I do a live show every week And also letting people know how I can support you and how I can help you and what I'm available to do. And then my passion project is the reading well, because I am a massive, massive reader. And I every conversation that I pretty much ever have somehow leads into sharing a book idea. And so I decided

to start the reading well to share what I've been reading and to build some community and conversation. It's a bit slow going. I just launched it the end of 2025 and it is a significant amount of work, which you would have thought I would know. but it is really fun. And I'm starting to do live sub-stuck interviews with smaller indie authors or smaller

people who do editing and publishing and things like that sort of grow.

audiences for folks who are still kind of new at this.

Angeleaza (03:15)
Amazing. ⁓ To ⁓ listen to those conversations,

Heather Vickery (03:16)
Yay!

Angeleaza (03:20)
or to follow you on the reading well, do you need to have read the book prior? Is it sort of a book club or is it more of your take, your analysis?

Heather Vickery (03:32)
Great question. So the posts, the articles that I put up are typically reviews, but I do reviews a little bit differently. I'm a vibe girl. So I'm not gonna give a review that says, is the plot of this book. I'm gonna give a review that says, ⁓ my goodness, this book was devourable. I loved the main character. I loved her energy. The writing style was fantastic. It made me feel.

joyful, like whatever, right? I learned so much I haven't even published it yet, but yesterday I finished a book called The Paris Novel, which was sort of offhandedly recommended to me. I am absolutely obsessed with Paris, which you can see above me manifesting. Those are from my trips to Paris.

Angeleaza (04:13)
yes, yeah.

Heather Vickery (04:15)
But I wasn't sure what to expect with this book. And it was historical fiction, but it followed this woman's wild unexpected journey through the art world in the 80s, which is what makes it historical fiction. But also she goes back and finds a female painter from the 1800s and 1900s, like when you weren't really allowed to be a female painter. All of that to say the review was...

this book took me by surprise. I didn't know what to expect, but it was delicious. and there's a lot of food content and I could smell it. I could taste it. And I want to go to there. which if you guys don't get that reference, I'm happy to give it to you. That's a book reference also. from Tina Fey's book, which came out years and years ago, bossy pants, highly recommend. She tells a story,

Angeleaza (04:56)
Fosse dance, yeah. So good.

Heather Vickery (05:00)
of a Disney World ad coming up on her computer and her five-year-old daughter goes, mama, I want to go to there. And so now I just, I say it because I think it's fun.

So anyway, you don't have to read the book. I'm sharing what I what I've experienced in an effort to either if you have read it to be in conversation with me about it. And if you are looking for recommendations I'm pretty much going to come in with ⁓ historical fiction, rom-com, queer rom-com love.

I do like a good nonfiction. love a good memoir. So I'm gonna come in with that. What I'm not probably coming in with is a lot of fantasy, but I do love magical realism, right? So I wanna be a trusted source for those things. Once we have a bigger audience, then I will do book clubs and if you're a subscriber.

Angeleaza (05:46)
Amen.

Heather Vickery (05:46)
you'll have

access to book clubs and things like private conversations with authors. I just want to help people grow their community and their audience and feel connected. think that reading changes lives, it changes people. Books are important and learning is important. And being able to have community around that and process what we're experiencing and what we're feeling and what we're learning just makes a huge difference.

Angeleaza (06:00)
Yes.

Agreed agreed 1 billion percent and I have so many other questions for you about books

But let's get into the episode today. So Heather, I am going to ask you the question that I ask all guests

So Heather, what are you?

Heather Vickery (06:27)
my goodness, what am I? Such an interesting question because I spend all day every day asking people.

like, how do you be peace? How do you be joy versus what? So I, how do I answer that question with integrity? What am I? I mean, I am a queer woman in America. I'm a mother of four daughters. I am an activist. I'm a social justice warrior. I'm a joy warrior. I'm somebody who believes

Angeleaza (06:51)
Hmm?

Heather Vickery (07:03)
with my whole being and I have evidential proof that we need to start with joy. We need to start by being the destination. I am a transformation coach. I am an avid reader. I am ⁓ a Harry Styles fan. I am ⁓ addicted to travel. Yeah. Yeah.

Angeleaza (07:26)
Amazing,

amazing. Thank you. mean, you just exemplified what this podcast is all about. So just to give you a little background, during 2020, when the Black Lives Matter movement was maybe at an all time peak after the execution of George Floyd, a question that people kept

saying it was what, what is identity, what is racism, what is anti-racism? And that question just kept echoing in my head And I processed it as I do and couldn't understand why the word what, felt so crude and ugh. And

Heather Vickery (08:11)
Yeah.

Angeleaza (08:13)
I realized it's because my whole life people have asked me, what are you? And what they're asking is, what am I racially? Because I am, no, mean, yeah, exactly, truly. But it's always, what are you? Because I am half black, I am half white.

Heather Vickery (08:19)
⁓ Of course.

Racially. None of your business. sorry. That feels like the right answer.

Angeleaza (08:35)
I am a natural blonde, I am fair skinned, it's such a reductive question to just be boiled down to one what? So this Pug House was kind of born out of the reclamation of that question. I'm not just one what, I am

Heather Vickery (08:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

for you.

Angeleaza (08:54)
whoever I want to be in this world, whatever I want to be. the way that you gave such a well-rounded holistic answer to that question is truly what this podcast is all about, just identifying and defining the multidimensionality of all of us. So what do you want to talk about? What part of your identity would you like to speak about today?

Heather Vickery (08:54)
Absolutely. The S.

Yeah. Well, I know we'll get

into it, but I have to ask you this question. Do you think that that is a uniquely American perspective? And I'll share why that's coming up. So I don't watch a ton of TV, but my partner and I started watching ponies. I don't know if you've heard of this, it takes place in the 70s and there are two women whose husbands were CIA agents in Russia and they get killed supposedly. We don't know yet if they really did or not, but then they come back as

Angeleaza (09:30)
No.

Heather Vickery (09:41)
secret CIA agents. I'm going somewhere with this, I promise. And a KGB agent walks up to one of them and she's a fluent Russian speaker and she's supposed to be Russian, right? And he says his name and asks her her name. And she answers with her name and the fact that she's a school teacher. And he said, you must be American. I ask you what your name was and you told me what you did.

Angeleaza (09:43)
huh. No.

Heather Vickery (10:12)
He said, only Americans do that. I was like, that's so true.

Angeleaza (10:14)
I have heard

that before, not in the context of ponies, but I have heard that it is an American experience I want to say there was a long form essay that was in one of the New York Magazine or New Yorker media worlds a few years ago that talked about why do we

answer the question of what are you or what's your name with, and this is what I do. I do think, yes, it is a very interesting discussion. And I think where it goes beyond an American

response is when people in other cultures are influenced by American culture. They get a lot of American media via TV or journalism, ⁓ movies. I see that

Heather Vickery (11:06)
Sure.

Angeleaza (11:11)
more present in those cultures that have close ties with our country

Heather Vickery (11:15)
Interesting. Yeah.

It's such a, this is not about me at all, but it's just a really interesting conversation, especially as America on the global scale shifts so rapidly and so drastically. whereas everyone, 20 years ago, everyone wanted to be more like us and now pretty much everyone wants to be the opposite of us. Which is a bit humbling and eye-opening. So, we could tie this into, like, in the work that I do,

Angeleaza (11:23)
BEST!

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (11:39)
I help people take radical responsibility for themselves. So if we're looking at America as a country and not our quote unquote leaders and politics, but like going from being someone that is revered and looked up to and admired and put on a pedestal. Now I'm doing a little bit of my own unpacking here, which is

Was that always the case globally or was that just the internal American propaganda that we were taught from elementary school through high school and college? Like, I'm not sure, but we go through an identity crisis. So what am I learning about myself? So I do this with clients taking radical responsibility. Like things are shifting. So now that I have this new information, who do I want to be? How do I want to be? What intentional action do I want to take? What can I control? What can't I control? And I feel like,

As a citizen of this country, I'm also going through that process of what am I learning if we're not on this pedestal anymore and were we ever and what questions am I asking and how am I shifting how I show up for myself, in my home, in my community, globally with this information in mind.

Angeleaza (12:48)
Yeah, no, absolutely. that's something that I've actually been thinking quite a bit about too. Is this how things have always been? Is this always what the world's perception of America was? Or are we kind of at the mercy of social media and the way that social media has, of course, caused a lot of challenges but also has opened our world in so many ways or given us

Heather Vickery (13:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Angeleaza (13:15)
access to different places and spaces that we never had this level of intimate access to before. No, I think that's a really interesting line of thought and kind of along those lines and kind of jumping into

one of the identities that you described. Do you mind talking to me about what it means to be a Joy Warrior in 2026 and how that has evolved over the past 10, five, two, three years, what that's looks like for you? Because I wonder, has there been a big shift in how that's approached or how?

Heather Vickery (14:03)
Yeah,

Angeleaza (14:03)
Okay, yeah, talk to me.

Heather Vickery (14:05)
it's a great question. And I will tell you that there are so many moments, fewer now than there were maybe a year ago, but so many moments where I go, how can you go out there and peddle joy when everything's a shit show? ⁓ But I do it because I know that joy is a form of revolution. And I know that they quote,

They want to take our joy. They want to take our peace and they have more power and control when we give up those things willingly. I've been an entrepreneur for a long time, for 25 years, I started as an event and wedding planner. And then about 12 years ago, I came out of the closet. I got a divorce after a decade of marriage and four kids. And I was like, who do I want to be?

when I grow up, at 38 who do I want to be when I grow up? And that's why I say that coaching found me, I didn't find it. I started to do some of this internal work and I realized that people were coming to me regularly. I want to start this, I want to try this, I want to stop this, I want to start this, I want to do this. I think you can help while you talk to me.

Angeleaza (14:55)
Good for you, you know?

Heather Vickery (15:11)
When I first started doing this work, my focus word was brave. And I still love it because bravery is self-defined. It's not an absence of fear. and it can look different every day. Sometimes being brave means saying no or saying yes. Sometimes it means taking a nap.

Sometimes it means speaking up, Like it could be all sorts of things and we have to decide for ourselves what feels brave to us right now in this moment and why it's worth taking that action. and I still have that, I'm a big fan of intentional bravery, but bravery started to naturally shift into joy because what showed up for me was,

What's the point? Why are we being brave? Well, we're being brave to take action that will what? Bring us joy.

right, make us feel successful or abundant or wealthy or safe or whatever, all of that is to feel good, to be joyful. it was a kind of an interesting shift. And then all of a sudden the seam started to come apart with everything everywhere and where everyone is stressed and we're tired and we're panicked and we're scared and we're all of these things. And we still have to

Angeleaza (16:02)
Bye.

Heather Vickery (16:21)
be joyful, we have to be peaceful, we have to be grateful, none of it with toxic positivity, We still be honest, we have to be honest with ourselves. But without a foundation of how to feel and seek more joy and more pleasure and more, well, I'll go back and use the word peace again. Without that as a foundation, we're just ratcheted up on high level all the time. And that's not sustainable.

Angeleaza (16:43)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (16:46)
It doesn't feel good. It doesn't get us where we want to go. even if you look at the quantum world, Quantum science shows us that what we're creating energetic wise right now is what we experience in the future. So we have to be the destination in this moment.

Angeleaza (16:58)
Hmm.

Heather Vickery (17:03)
So what does it mean to be joyful? And that's what a joy warrior is, Like I'm coming at it I'm going, yep, this thing sucks. And now what? And now what do you wanna do? And I'm reminded, and this has been coming up a lot lately because everything is really challenging, right? As we already identified during the AIDS crisis.

Angeleaza (17:10)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (17:21)
the gay men would say, like we would work and nurse our friends all day and then we would dance all night. And that's what kept us alive. Because you have to have the joy. You have to. So that's what a joy warrior is. I'm like, we're gonna look for that and we're gonna be honest and we're not bypassing any of our thoughts or our feelings or our emotions, but we're finding what does work for us and what you can amplify so that you can have.

Angeleaza (17:28)
Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Heather Vickery (17:43)
more of that harmony.

Angeleaza (17:45)
I love that. Thank you. And diving into what you just said a little bit, you started to touch on it, but do you mind defining what the difference between toxic positivity and finding joy is? Is it a gradual shift? I ask this because I have,

Heather Vickery (17:48)
You're welcome.

Angeleaza (18:05)
been in lot of toxically positive places and spaces, There's that saying, fake it till you make it,

But sometimes that's not realistic and it's not safe and it's not healthy. So do you mind kind of defining what is what and what is toxic positivity and what is joy?

Heather Vickery (18:24)
Yeah, sure. So

there may be several definitions, but my definition of toxic positivity is almost forced. It's where you absolutely deny the truth of anything that is quote unquote negative, my partner used to have, was maybe six or seven years ago when,

things were just falling apart in, well, things are still falling apart in the Middle East, right? But the refugees were coming in and she would be like, I can't feel bad for myself because I could be like them and that would be worse. And I was like, that doesn't help anybody do anything. that doesn't solve any problems. It doesn't help the refugees. It doesn't help you feel better. So to me, that's toxic positivity that like, I don't have the right

to feel sorry for this thing that's hurting me because it could be worse. That's sucky. So positive psychology teaches us that you wanna be super honest.

if you're feeling scared or you're sad or you're hurt or you're angry or you're mad or whatever those things are, they exist and you welcome them with self-compassion and curiosity and not judgment.

Angeleaza (19:22)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (19:32)
and you allow that human emotion to move through you, to move, To be released, you got to feel it, to heal it kind of concept. ⁓ And lots of things can be true at once, You can be sad and still be joyful. And I'll give you a really great example. My oldest daughter is about to graduate from college and then she's going to move to LA. And I am sad because I'm going to miss her.

Angeleaza (19:36)
Yeah, absolutely.

I love

Heather Vickery (19:55)
and I'm scared because this is a big scary world and I don't want to go out there. And I'm also so proud and I'm so overjoyed with excitement for her to be on this adventure All of these things exist at once. where Joy Warrior, where taking radical responsibility for yourself, your energy, your mindset comes in is which one do I want to focus on? I'm acknowledging that those things exist. They're there and sometimes they creep up, but I'm...

Angeleaza (20:15)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (20:21)
more focused on being excited for her and supporting her and letting her go off and have this amazing lived experience and know that if she needs me, I'm right here.

Angeleaza (20:30)
Yeah, Oh my goodness. I feel like as soon as I allowed myself to accept that two things can be true at the same time, I feel like the world opened up in a way

Heather Vickery (20:41)
my daughters all went to us really small school when they were younger and they all had the same kindergarten teacher, even though there's eight years difference between them. And every morning she would open up, she would do a group circle and they would sing a little song in, My Name is Heather and I'm feeling blank today.

Angeleaza (20:47)
the

Heather Vickery (20:58)
And one of their answers, would say, oh, I'm feeling mixed emotions today. And they would just go, oh, okay. and they would honor that and they would move on. Like just that ability to say, I'm feeling so many things today. Huh,

Angeleaza (21:11)
that's beautiful I had a similar experience when I was in my early 20s. I worked for Lululemon, actually, which is, ooh, yes, yes, but also no. as a company, sure, as an individual store.

Heather Vickery (21:19)
Oof, talk about toxic positivity.

Mm-hmm. Okay, that's good.

Angeleaza (21:27)
No, it was one of the,

granted, I worked at probably the most famous Lululemon there's ever been. if you haven't heard of the Lululemon murders

Look it up, Google it, Lululemon murders. I worked at that store. Not when the murders happened, but that store. maybe the fabric of the building did not allow for toxic positivity because of, you know, the ghosts. ⁓ Yes.

Heather Vickery (21:52)
Fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. The ghosts. I'm with you.

Angeleaza (21:57)
But when I worked for that store, at the top of every shift, we would check in with whoever our shift leader was. We would have a moment to just go around in a circle and clear whatever we needed Whatever was holding us back that day, maybe whatever.

Heather Vickery (22:11)
love that.

Angeleaza (22:15)
was driving us forward. in roles that I have held since, I have really tried to utilize that same ideology because we're not coming into every space and place, every situation.

at the same level Maybe somebody physically feels amazing but emotionally is drained or the inverse could be true again, it's that same thought. Two things, many things can be true if we can live in the gray.

Heather Vickery (22:41)
And it really requires being present with yourself and being reflective and listening and being gentle with yourself and not bullshitting yourself. Right? So I will tell clients all the time, if you practice intention in the morning, like checking in, doing a body scan, like how am I feeling? What's my agenda look like? How much do I have to give today?

Angeleaza (22:44)
Which is hard.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (23:07)
And if your honest answer is 15 % and you give 15%, that's 100%. But it requires you to be intentional about, okay, I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna do these things I have to do and then I'm going to rest or I'm gonna go play or whatever it is that you need in that moment. And the reason I love that kindergarten story is because imagine a world where that's the foundation.

Angeleaza (23:21)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (23:32)
for the little people who are becoming the grownup people. Because we're all over here in our 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s trying to learn it. I work with women and queer folks that are middle-aged all the time that don't believe they're allowed to play before they work or choose rest or...

Angeleaza (23:41)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (23:52)
prioritize themselves because that might mean they're not giving, giving, giving to someone else. I love that maybe the next generation won't hopefully have as many struggles as we do. But I love that clearing. That is so beautiful. I tell leaders when I do corporate work all the time, open your meetings with what's working. What are you grateful for? What's feeling good?

Angeleaza (24:13)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (24:15)
it'll shift the whole energy of everything. you leave room in the end to go, and what do you need support with? What's not working? What's a challenge, right? But open with the positive. So that's the difference in toxic positivity versus, like just being joyful and being grateful and focusing on what is working is you make room for everything else, but you start with that high vibe.

Angeleaza (24:32)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that's beautiful.

They did have another question.

Heather Vickery (24:35)
Yeah.

Angeleaza (24:37)
kind of along the lines of your joy warrior ship. So you mentioned you started with Brave and that evolved into this

Heather Vickery (24:48)
taking radical responsibility for yourself.

Angeleaza (24:48)
Radical responsibility

for yourself. And that evolved to joy. Can you talk to me about that evolution? Was that something that the business organically grew through or did that grow through you personally

Heather Vickery (25:01)
everything starts

with through me. Everything that I know that I'm certified on, that I teach, that I coach on, that I support people with was my journey first. And then I feel like it's something that could be valuable to other people. And I start to incorporate it and share it. And I want to be clear, none of those other things disappear, but it is just what feels like the most prevalent thing that is needed that people are not necessarily honest about. And this is going to sound weird.

Angeleaza (25:09)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (25:26)
but I have long felt like I am slightly ahead of the curve in recognizing this is what, as a global community, we need. So I start putting it out there and I start talking about it. And then a year, two years, three years later, everybody's talking about it. I mean, it's also the law of synchronicity, right? So right now I am seeing, hearing people talk about joy all over the place,

And when I started talking about it, was like, people think I'm crazy. Like they don't know, they don't know what I'm talking about. and it doesn't make me special necessarily, but I do tend to see this opening, this need early on and put it out there. And now it's become a lot more common, but it really is important. And I love the idea of a lot of people going out and talking about joy, joy creation, allowing yourself to experience it and feel it because

we need all of these conversations. I'm all for collaboration over competition on it. I think, I've never said this out loud. I think there's something to be said for being joyful responsibly. And that comes from taking radical responsibility for yourself, I get this pushback all the time with self-care and with bravery and.

Angeleaza (26:12)
Yeah.

Heather Vickery (26:33)
You don't have to sacrifice yourself for other people. Well, aren't you just a bunch of selfish control freaks? Well, no, we're not, And so there's a level of responsibility that's required with it. And so you have the right to be as joyful as you can dream, bigger than you could ever imagine, but you have the responsibility not to crush other people in that process, What does that look like, that takes that radical responsibility to a whole new level.

Angeleaza (26:49)
Mm-hmm.

pressure.

Where did this begin in your personal life? This journey for you?

Heather Vickery (27:04)
goodness. Well, my dear, when you get divorced and come out and you have children and I still fight this battle more than I wish I did. Those feelings of selfishness and guilt regularly come up. And sometimes I think that my kids would just rather have, I have stayed small and miserable.

Angeleaza (27:09)
I've done it, I've done it. I have not.

Mmm.

Heather Vickery (27:29)
I think one day they won't feel that way. But right now it still sucks for them. Where are they going for Christmas and taking their things back and forth from one house to the other? my third daughter, my 16 year old has gotten to a point, and my ex and I do fine. We communicate fine. Like we don't fight. We don't put the kids in the middle. there's none of that.

Angeleaza (27:44)
Thanks.

Heather Vickery (27:48)
talking about, we all going to Seattle for my oldest daughter's college graduation? And she was like, you and daddy just need to have this conversation and tell us what we're doing. Because I would ask and he would ask. So she started to advocate for that, But the guilt and the shame, it pops up. I just, really think I would have died. I wouldn't have been a great mother. I wouldn't have been a good person. I wouldn't have been a happy person. That couldn't have been better for them.

Angeleaza (27:59)
Okay.

them.

Heather Vickery (28:11)
There's no

scenario where that would have been better for them, even though, and lots of things can be true at once, even though they feel sad, they wish that this wasn't true, that they didn't have two houses or they didn't have to navigate, the two different divorced parents. Still, I think it was the best choice. And I think one day they'll know that. being a human is really complicated. And being a thoughtful, compassionate, empathetic human.

is really complicated. There is no one right way to do it. There is no checklist on this. You have to check in with yourself and what feels right to you and the people around you and is this going to give you the results that you want and that sounds so corporatey but I mean that like is this going to make life easier for you or for other people you know sometimes we do small things that are simple sacrifices for us but a

Angeleaza (28:36)
Mm-hmm.

No, yeah.

Heather Vickery (28:59)
big support for somebody else. And that actually feels good. It doesn't feel like you're giving parts of yourself away. you know, my mother, I love her to bits and pieces, she had the icky flu, like the really bad down for three weeks flu. And my stepdad, now she's in her seventies, he's in his eighties. She texted me, well, he still asked me what he was having for dinner. So, I made sure his belly was full. And I said, hey, guess what? That's on you. That's on you.

Angeleaza (29:10)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Heather Vickery (29:22)
You could have said, I'm sick, figure out your own dinner, your grown man. I did not give her the sympathy she wanted there, You have to advocate for yourself and you have to ask yourself, is this going to get me where I want to be?

Angeleaza (29:38)
Is that what you were thinking when you made that decision to pursue that divorce or separation? Were you thinking you were advocating for yourself or that you just didn't have a choice?

Heather Vickery (29:45)
⁓

So as the story goes,

I felt for many years every day like I got smaller and smaller and sadder and sadder to a point where I almost felt like I didn't exist as a human. And I remember one morning sitting at the breakfast table with all four of my girls and my baby was baby baby, and thinking, what would I tell them to do if they came to me in a similar situation?

What would I tell them to do? And my answer was not, you made your bed, now sleep in it. Which would have been some parents' answers, but it wouldn't have been mine. My answer would have been, the world is waiting for you to show up. The world is waiting for you to live out loud and be big and go out and take this world by storm. You have to trust yourself. And the moment that thought came in, the immediate follow-up thought was, shit.

That means I have to do that. Like if that's what I would tell them to do, then I have to do that. I have to be that person, A, because it's the right answer for me and B, because it shows them what is possible for them. And for many years, I said, I got a divorce because it was better for me and my kids, which is not incorrect. But at one point, my oldest daughter said to me, you have to admit you did it because that's what you wanted.

You didn't do it for us, you did it for you. And that felt painful, but she was right. I did do it for me. And because lots of things can be true at once, by doing it for me, I was also doing it for them.

Angeleaza (31:14)
Well, to show up to be the best human first, mother second that you could be, you have to be living truthfully. Now I'm going to rewind even further. When you first got married, were you aware that you were queer?

Heather Vickery (31:17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I wasn't, although there were plenty of signs now that I look back. And the best way I can describe this, because people always seem a little bit floored by this, I didn't know any lesbians growing up. I didn't find the lesbians in college. Maybe things would have been different if I had discovered them. I did always, I was in Ohio. ⁓

Angeleaza (31:35)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

out.

Where were you geographically? It's always Ohio, isn't it?

Heather Vickery (31:58)
I was born and raised in Indianapolis and went to college in Ohio and then immediately moved to Chicago after graduation. I can now noticeably say that there was always a deep physical attraction to women, but I didn't realize that the way straight women talk about women, the way they feel when they talk about women, it was different than the way I felt because all women be like, my God, she's so hot. she's so sexy. She's so beautiful, right?

Angeleaza (31:59)
Uh-huh.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (32:22)
that felt different in my body than it would for a straight woman, but I didn't know that. And I didn't know it until I knew it. And I was in my thirties and I was like, ⁓ that's what that, that's, that's what that is. And it's a lot of, it's a lot of conditioning. It's a lot of patriarchal conditioning. One of my favorite lines in one of my favorite books of all time is Trevor Noah's book, Born a Crime.

Angeleaza (32:24)
Bye.

Hmm.

Wow.

Ugh,

Heather Vickery (32:46)
And he has a line

Angeleaza (32:46)
love.

Heather Vickery (32:47)
that says, can't dream of things you've never imagined.

If it's never even occurred to you that such a thing could exist, you don't know to think of it.

Angeleaza (32:57)
for sure.

Heather Vickery (32:58)
And not that I didn't know they were gay women, I just wasn't like, I was doing the thing I was told to do. is how you grow up, this is how you behave, this is how you have a family, this is what you do. there wasn't self-reflection, I wasn't asking a lot of questions, I was just checking the boxes and that didn't work. It doesn't work for most people, but it definitely didn't work for me.

Angeleaza (33:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Wow. That's interesting that you framed it

in that self-awareness sense because that is the same way that I think about my journey to and through divorce, which is tricky when everyone always wants there to be a bad guy. And there isn't because, two things can be true.

Heather Vickery (33:34)
Of there isn't, there isn't mean, two

things can be true. we change and we shift, but this is why, if I could give everybody one gift, would be like that deep, deep, deep self-awareness because it is super easy to be on autopilot. you go, how did I even get here? Did I want to be here? you can't make,

Angeleaza (33:47)
Sure.

Heather Vickery (33:56)
healthy decisions for yourself if you're not practicing self-awareness and really being present in how you're showing up for your life. And also that can be really scary because a lot of people are like, I don't even want to know. I don't even want to find out what I don't know. It's just easier to put my head down and move through. But I tell you, it's no way to live a life.

Angeleaza (34:01)
sure.

No,

until I realized I wasn't in touch with my emotions, I thought that I was and I thought I had that self-awareness. yes, and I definitely did not. But I'm also, and tell me what your thoughts are on this. I'm not sure many people can have that level of self-awareness in their early 20s. What are your thoughts?

Heather Vickery (34:26)
Interesting. Yeah.

I

think that's a really fascinating thing to say. I think it's very rare. I agree with you on that. And I think it's an anthropological thing. so first of all, before I even got into perimenopause myself and started studying and researching, I was able to say, when you're younger, you don't have the evidence needed

to care less, Your life experience hasn't taught you yet that this isn't the end of the world, So there is that, just plain and simple. I think you're right. It's very difficult to have that level. Now, some people are old souls and some people have it and who knows what they've been through, but it is very difficult. The other thing, this...

Angeleaza (35:06)
for

It's like the stakes are so high in high school for things that

you wouldn't give a second thought to now.

Heather Vickery (35:22)
then we become adults and we beat ourselves up for having cared and like, you can't do that either. You got to practice a lot of self-compassion. But neurologically and anthropologically, and I can't speak for the men because I am not one and I'm a cisgender woman and as people with uteruses, hormonally,

As you move into perimenopause your brain starts to change, you have a neurological shift because of the hormones shifting in your body, there really is like a button that switches, the zero-fux button. And it's an anthropological thing because you've moved out of the phase where you need to be creating and birthing.

Angeleaza (36:01)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (36:02)
and you've moved into, for lack of a better term, a crone, sustaining, knowledge-giving expert, there's science behind it that now shows it. And you can look back at ancient civilizations and how they revered their elder women and those elder women helped care for the smaller children, but they passed on their knowledge and their wisdom, That crone energy. When I turned 50, I was like,

Angeleaza (36:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heather Vickery (36:26)
I'm so ready for my Crohn era. Like, let's go. Like, I'm here for this, A, I think part of it is just lived experience. And the more evidence you have that other things could be true helps you have a different level of self-awareness and make different choices. But B, physically and hormonally and neurologically, we shift out of those stages as we get older.

Angeleaza (36:46)
I mean that makes sense. I've seen, you know, a Disney movie once or twice and Moana is the most recent one that came to mind. yeah, she gives that wisdom and I'm thinking of also Grandmother Willow from Disney Pocahontas, which is a thing, whatever.

Heather Vickery (36:54)
The grandmother, yeah, yep,

Angeleaza (37:05)
But yeah, it's definitely, it's a trope, but it's a trope for a reason. all the tropes are rooted in reality. I want to go back to something you said a little earlier. You kind of spoke a bit of your professional journey.

You said that you worked in events and weddings. Am I correct in my math thinking that you were working in events and weddings prior to your divorce? Okay, experiencing that work and working in weddings, did that play a part in your shifts in life? No.

Heather Vickery (37:28)
Yes,

No, I

owned my own luxury event and wedding planning business. So I started doing nonprofit organizations for the American Cancer Society and Special Olympics for the state of Illinois. And I had a lot of event experience. And then I learned very quickly out of college that while I worked well with people, I didn't work well for people. And I was like, I just don't want to do this. I don't want to answer to anybody. I don't want anybody to tell me what to do.

Angeleaza (37:46)
that's beautiful.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

or

Heather Vickery (38:11)
back in the early 2000s was like, well, I'll just start my own business. Like this was before social media as we know it, right? Before the internet was what the internet is now. And I'm like, I don't really even know how I did that, but I did it and it worked and I liked the work, but it is backbreaking work. is exhausting, physically exhausting, emotionally exhausting. And while it...

Angeleaza (38:19)
Mm-hmm.

for.

Heather Vickery (38:37)
could be very emotionally rewarding. It wasn't very financially rewarding. Goodness, thank goodness. I feel so, I have so much sympathy for all of my event industry friends during COVID because it was devastating for all of them. And I was really glad to have been out of that. mean, full disclosure, 2020 and 2021 were the best financial years I've ever had in 25 years of entrepreneurship because people suddenly, especially in 2020, had time and they still had money.

Angeleaza (38:51)
Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Heather Vickery (39:08)
And they were like, I should do some personal development work. Or I should figure out how to run my business differently or like whatever, right? So that worked out fine for me too. Lots of things can be true at once. It was a terrible, terrible time in the world and my business was thriving. And I was helping people deal with their emotions of it. no, ⁓ just didn't love it. And I wasn't making the money that I wanted for what my...

Angeleaza (39:12)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (39:35)
output was, my energy output was and my time. And I started to see that people saw me more as a guiding lead, which it turns out is a much better fit for me, which I was doing as a planner too. That's interesting, right? Like lot of those same skills were very transferable. And I have a double major in English and theater. So I always joke that my degree is in bullshit. Like I, I can talk about anything. I can do this, right? So

Angeleaza (39:57)
You know?

Well, I'm

getting my master's in journalism, so theater to journalism pipeline, you know, just talking.

Heather Vickery (40:05)
You can either, there you go. Yep, yep, absolutely.

So no, and for a minute there, there was about a two year overlap from when I fully came out to when I really closed my wedding business. And there's a tremendous amount of shame surrounded in being a wedding planner who's in the middle of a divorce.

Angeleaza (40:21)
Mm.

I cannot imagine. ⁓ You've mentioned shame quite a few times. How did you pivot from that feeling of shame to bravery to joy? Were there specific moments where you felt those shifts occur or was it all very gradual?

Heather Vickery (40:54)
I think it's all very gradual. I mean, if I sat with it for a while, I could probably find specific aha moments, but it is a series of showing up for yourself, doing the reflective work, asking yourself the hard questions, taking the intentional action. know, like I'm certified in NLP. I do hypnosis. I do subliminal audios. ⁓ I create them for clients. I take clients through it, but I do them for myself. Like I take myself through all of these

Angeleaza (41:00)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's amazing.

Heather Vickery (41:24)
processes that I support clients with. And as you're going through that shift, your ability to be, and we said this earlier, to be more aware of what's happening, to recognize it earlier on, it doesn't mean I don't still feel some of those things everybody else does. It doesn't mean I don't feel guilt or shame or sadness or frustration. It means that I recognize it quicker and I have the tools to move through it faster. And...

Angeleaza (41:25)
Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Heather Vickery (41:52)
with just a tremendous amount of self-compassion. I just don't beat myself up anymore about things that have already happened. Like that is, it's done. So who do I wanna be now? What do I wanna do next? But it takes a lot of work to get to that point.

Angeleaza (42:06)
Yeah, that's beautiful.

a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of patience. Oh, wow. But it is so inspiring hearing you speak from the place, the top of the mountain where you are right now. I'm sure it's, you're constantly climbing that mountain, reaching towards joy, but wow, you're, I'm getting that.

Heather Vickery (42:25)
⁓ well.

You're constantly climbing.

Angeleaza (42:36)
⁓ exactly what you said earlier, ⁓ that you're just like a little ahead of the purview. Yeah, and that's great, and I love that. Do you mind defining what a projector in human design is?

Heather Vickery (42:42)
That's a little odd. Yeah, yeah.

well, so human design is a modern scientific self-discovery system that's based on several different ancient sciences and philosophies, the Chinese I Ching, Kabbalah, Buddhism, quantum physics, the chakra system and astrology.

Angeleaza (42:58)
wow.

Heather Vickery (43:03)
I can't tell you how it works. I only know that it does work. It is incredible because it's all about knowing who you are, accepting who you are and elevating from that knowledge. There's nothing that you can change or fix in your human design. And so it's not, and this is scientifically proven and we talk about this in my positive psychology specialization certification. It doesn't serve you.

to try and get better at the things that are not your natural talents. It serves you to figure out how to do all the things you wanna do by using the resources that are naturally yours. So figuring those things out and then working with it. So all of my work centers around, I always start by pulling a human design chart, whether somebody wants to know all about it or I just use it as a resource to support my clients. It's helping figure out how to ask you questions in a way that will resonate.

Angeleaza (43:28)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (43:52)
helping you figure out what your Dharmic purpose is, what your gifts are that you give to the world, and how to live into that. So there are five types in human design. A manifestor generator, a manifesting generator, projector, and reflector. Manifestors are inventors. They create things that no one's ever thought of. And their whole purpose is to push that information out to inform people and drop it like it's hot and walk away.

that can be challenging because they're not supposed to worry about what people do with the information once they've received it. So that's Manifestr. Who they're giving that information off to are generators and manifesting generators. These are literally the motor that the world runs on. Generators and manifesting generators are here to respond. that can make some people really mad. What do mean I don't create? I don't invent.

Angeleaza (44:19)
Thank you.

Heather Vickery (44:36)
They do, but they do it in response. I see that, I hear that, I can fix that, I can build that, I can change that, I can start that, most of the world are either generators or manifesting generators, and the world is built by generators for generators. They hustle is a lot easier for those folks. They don't get tired as easy because that sacral, which is what makes them a generator, is literally a motor.

Angeleaza (44:53)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (45:00)
that goes and goes and goes. Now, of course, everybody needs rest, but they operate differently. A manifesting generator is a generator at its core, but they have a little of that manifestor energy. So they're here to inform and respond. manifesting generators tend to be multi-passionate people. They're often accused of, you know, changing their mind a lot. Why can't you stick to one thing? Why can't you ever finish anything? And that's because they're not supposed to. They're supposed to...

Angeleaza (45:22)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (45:26)
try whatever feels like a yes until they have what they need from it and then move on. So that's a really interesting scenario. And then there are projectors, which is what I am. And projectors are here to guide and lead. We know things and we don't know why we know them, but ⁓ we do. And the trick is we need to be invited in to share what we know. So those kids that you knew growing up.

who were know-it-alls and were always telling people what they should be doing, there were probably projectors who didn't recognize that they hadn't been invited to share that information yet.

Angeleaza (45:53)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Got it. Wow, that's so interesting.

Heather Vickery (46:00)
Now,

so interesting. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, right? So in this conversation, you've invited me in, I can share all the knowledge in the world, but if we were out having coffee together and I had something I wanted to share, it's different than like just having a conversation, talking about whatever. But if I had a thought or an idea or something, a knowing for you, would say, ⁓ I would say, hey, I have a thought about that. Would it be okay to share it?

Angeleaza (46:08)
Please.

Heather Vickery (46:26)
Would you like to hear it? Right. And let you invite me in. Tricky thing about projectors is we designed to rest before we're successful. The world is not built like that.

Angeleaza (46:27)
Bye bye.

Heather Vickery (46:34)
but I have rebuilt my world. I'm really grateful to have my own business. I absolutely rest first. And when I rest first, I am more successful in all of those areas. But we live in a world that tells you, you don't get that reward until you've done the thing. So I've had to reconfigure what that looks like for me and let go of my number one limiting voice, which was, don't work hard enough because you're...

whole business is in your phone and your phone's in your hand all the time and you should be working all the time and look at all of these other people who are doing all these things and they're really successful and they're making a lot of money and they're really happy and they're working all the time. Why do you need a nap?

Angeleaza (47:02)
Oof.

Wow. My brain is exploding. Wow.

Heather Vickery (47:09)
Right? So I, you know, again.

Yeah. So a human design is amazing. If anybody wants, you can pull a free human design chart on my website. It's super awesome. send you the link, pull a free chart. And if you're curious and you want to know more, I mean, you can go, you can go on Instagram and follow human design people. But if you actually want to have a reading and you want to really have something personalized and customized to you, I do readings and you can find all of that. And I use that information with, in my groups, in

Angeleaza (47:19)
Mm-hmm. You'll send me the link and I'll put it in the show notes

Heather Vickery (47:39)
My one-on-one coaching in my retreats, we start with human design so that you gain self-awareness and self-acceptance. And then we figure out where is there messy messaging? Where is there subconscious patterns and limitations that are preventing you from living into your highest self? And that's where I bring the subconscious work in. Whether it's through time techniques, hypnosis, EFT tapping, like all sorts of different tools and resources, we can shift you from a certain state of being or

Angeleaza (47:44)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (48:08)
belief or behavior into one that you more desire through subconscious reprogramming.

Angeleaza (48:14)
That is incredible. Wow, I did not know about this and I love ⁓ Meyers-Briggs. I love an enneagram. I love that information and finding where it fits into my own life.

You said that you redesigned your world to suit who you are as a projector. did the world get in the way throughout your life Or where were ways that you found obstacles?

Heather Vickery (48:34)
yeah.

Yeah, I think always, right? I I said, I learned early on that I didn't, while I worked well with people, I didn't work well for people. I think that came from, just, I was never able to force myself to behave like a generator. I was never able to push through. I was always the person that would fall asleep if we tried to go out clubbing when I was younger. Like I just, don't operate like that. I could never, I could never make myself fit into somebody else's mold, but that came with a lot.

Angeleaza (48:52)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Heather Vickery (49:07)
of self-deprecation and shame and guilt and what's wrong with you kind of thing. But I still couldn't do it. So I just felt bad about not being able to do it. So when I got that language and I got my human design certification, it explained so much. Like I can spend an obscene amount of time alone doing nothing.

but like, I am good. Like I really limit my external social stuff. I keep my workday to three or four hours. My morning is always slow. I don't start until 10. I only take a certain number of one-on-one clients a day. I only do a certain number of podcast interviews a week. Like I really manage all of that so that I can manage my energy output.

Angeleaza (49:38)
Mm-hmm.

Wow.

Heather Vickery (49:48)
And then when my body says, bitch, you went too far, I go, all right, what can I renegotiate? What can I shift? What can I change? What can I move? And then I, what do I need? Do I need to lay down and meditate? Do I need to go for a walk? Do I need to just get out of the house? Like, what do I need to do? And then I try and give myself that thing.

Angeleaza (50:09)
That is taking listen to your body to the next level. That is incredible. I have a really challenging time.

with listening to my body. And over the past several years because my body is so sensitive to extreme exertion, I have become

as in tune with my body as I've ever been. But what you're doing is truly taking everything to infinite levels. That is inspiring.

Heather Vickery (50:36)
Good.

you know, it just takes practice. And I'm hearing what you're saying and you're, think you're so right that we physically manifest in a form of not being well physically ⁓ when we don't listen to the information from our body and this and that. And, know, the subconscious reprogramming work can really help you or anyone in that situation. Like we can really.

Angeleaza (50:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (51:09)
create some massive, massive shifts there. And I'm not special. Like, I mean, I'm great. I'm good at my job. I'm fun. If you like me, then come work with me. anybody can learn this. It's not like I have this amazing gift that you can't possess. That's not true. You can. Yeah.

Angeleaza (51:24)
Totally. Wow.

Thank you so much for that.

what did you want to be when you grew up? When you were a kid, when you were small.

Heather Vickery (51:39)
I wanted to be a singer.

When I was small, I would tell my mother, I want to be a singer when I grow up, but if I'm too good for that, I guess I'll just be a doctor.

Angeleaza (51:50)
That is badass.

Heather Vickery (51:51)
I was never going to

be a doctor, by the way. I could have maybe been a singer, but I could never have been a doctor.

Angeleaza (51:57)
Wow. Also, I feel like you're my spirit animal in some ways because I said I was going to be an actress truly from birth. I was going to be Shirley Temple. I was, yes. I am now retired, but I was. But if I wasn't going to be an actress, I was going to be a lawyer.

Heather Vickery (52:06)
And you are. Look at that.

Yeah.

Angeleaza (52:17)
but I am not a lawyer and that's fine because being a lawyer and I we would not mesh in a wide variety of ways but yeah wow so a singer who were your inspirations who did you want to be? uh-huh of course of course

Heather Vickery (52:23)
now.

honey, I'm a Gen X girl. So Madonna and Prince. ⁓

But I have a such a wide, I'm a big music fan, like big, wide and vast and, you know, like we're gonna go see Brandi Carlile on Friday and then I'm taking my daughter to see Jack Johnson and Louis Tomlinson and Zayn and Harry Styles and.

Angeleaza (52:54)
Wow.

Wow wow wow.

Heather Vickery (52:59)
⁓ That's the summer. Like, we're gonna have the best summer ever. And I've seen the Steve... Right?

Angeleaza (53:03)
love that. My friends just saw that the Brandy Carlisle

show. My friend and her wife saw it earlier this week. Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Vickery (53:13)
Yeah, I'm super excited. It's gonna be really, really fun. And we don't even know her

music. I took my daughter to see Renee rap and I know her, did she? There you go, that's fun. I didn't know the music, but I love live music and my daughter was excited. And I've seen the Steve Miller band like 11 times. I've seen Sting like 15 times. I'll go to almost anything. ⁓

Angeleaza (53:20)
to that concert with Lauren actually yeah

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (53:41)
For me, it's about the way music makes me feel. And I am a lyrics girl, usually, because I'm a writer and a poet and I have all of that. Although I had this really interesting experience, this is super random. When I was in, I just finished a retreat that I was hosting in Costa Rica at the end of January. ⁓ It was amazing. And while we were there, Harry Styles knew Single Drops. Have you heard Aperture yet? Have you listened?

Angeleaza (53:45)
Mm-hmm.

I love a lyric.

incredible. Congrats.

Hmm. I have,

have, I have. ⁓ I'm still warming up to it because I am a lyric girl too. If I don't have time, sometimes if I'm like lukewarm on something, if I don't have time to look up the lyrics and try to like put myself in the place and space where it was written or what it means or what the... I'm not sure I'll get there, but I've listened to it. It's fine.

Heather Vickery (54:34)
Okay, so

Angeleaza (54:36)
I need to warm up to it.

Heather Vickery (54:36)
that would almost always be me. I would almost always be like, well, but let me warm up. Let me read the lyrics. There was something for me about that song that felt like my heartbeat was on the outside of my body. Like I was like, I can feel myself exist in this song.

Angeleaza (54:57)
I know exactly what that feeling is. I know what you mean.

Heather Vickery (55:00)
Yeah.

And the whole time then, the whole week that I was in Costa Rica, that's the only song I listened to. When I had private time and I could listen to music, I just listened to that. And then actually on the last day of the retreat, I was hosting, was leading somatic movement every morning with the attendees. And instead of meditation music, I was like, we're gonna listen to this on repeat because you're right, the lyrics are hard to hear in that song. The lyrics are actually beautiful for that song.

Angeleaza (55:16)
Mm-hmm.

I believe

you, yeah. I will. Okay.

Heather Vickery (55:28)
So look them up and then come back and like send me a message and let me know what you think.

But they're secondary to the way the music makes you feel, which was Harry's intention. He was like, I want, he spent the last two years remembering what it felt like to be an audience member and to be lost in that music. And he's like, I just want people to be lost in the music. ⁓ So I don't, why did I just share that? I don't even remember why I told you that story, but.

Angeleaza (55:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Vickery (55:56)
I'm amazed by how we can be moved by art and creation and other people's experiences. And I love, there are so many things to not like about the world today in February of 2026, but I love that there are so many people creating and the opportunities available to us to experience and to learn from one another and to share with one another. We are so rich with all of that.

Angeleaza (56:07)
for today.

What do I?

Heather Vickery (56:26)
And that's how many things can be true at once.

Angeleaza (56:28)
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree.

Heather Vickery (56:31)
it's so easy to catastrophize right now. And I am a dreamer and I'm an achiever of unrealistic dreams and I'm also a realist and I know it is deeply dire. we are not angry enough as a whole. And I know that art will create, art will.

Angeleaza (56:34)
⁓ huh.

⁓ huh.

Good-bye.

Heather Vickery (56:55)
be resistance, art will come through. The creators will create and they will find another outlet and it will build a new momentum. And we just have to be looking for it and amplifying it and creating space for people.

to have exposure to it, which is one of the reasons that I started the reading. Well, same thing, right? Like, you people are writing these books and they're telling these stories and they're telling the truth. And we want to have those stories heard. We want to be able to see ourselves and see hope and see possibility. And there's a guy that I follow on TikTok who says, close your eyes and listen and tell me what you see. And he just plays piano music. And I see...

Angeleaza (57:16)
Yeah

Heather Vickery (57:37)
One time I see ballerinas dancing across the stage and another time I see colors flash, like whatever, right? Like look for it.

Angeleaza (57:42)
Uh-huh.

No, art is made to move that's why I always wanted to be an actress because I remember seeing this Shirley Temple ⁓ sing along when I was about three or four

Heather Vickery (57:53)
I love that.

Angeleaza (57:57)
And they talked about how Shirley Temple was America's antidote to the Great Depression. Her movies were made and they were successful because when people went to the theater, they were moved and they forgot about all the stuff. Yeah. And she brought that joy. She was a joy warrior. Yeah. But I mean, in bringing it back,

Heather Vickery (58:12)
Yeah.

Because joy is resistance.

I love that. Yeah.

Angeleaza (58:23)
to substack to circle back at the very end. who's your favorite substack creator and why?

Heather Vickery (58:29)
my goodness. There's so many really lovely ones. There's a friend, Carrie Hussain, who ⁓ does color work, color theory. She calls it ⁓ Hue Man, H-U-E, not human, but Hue Man. Her stuff is really cool and different and fun. There's a woman, her sub-stack is called Badass Women in History. If you want to learn like,

Angeleaza (58:32)
with me.

Yeah, I love that.

Heather Vickery (58:59)
We've always been here. If you subscribe to my stuff, my suggested publication list is really long. So take what you want.

Angeleaza (59:06)
Okay, amazing.

Heather Vickery (59:08)
Absolutely.

Angeleaza (59:08)
thank you so much,

Heather, for speaking with me today and sharing, oh my gosh, all of your beautiful wisdom. I'm not calling you a crone, but I think you are in that era. You're giving that wisdom, truth, that knowledge.

Heather Vickery (59:17)
Thank you.

I love it.

I love it. It's Crone Energy, hopefully not Crone Appearance, but you know, that's fine too.

Angeleaza (59:28)
No, not at all. Not at all. You said

when I turned 50, I said, what? Excuse me? No way. ⁓ congrats. amazing. But thank you so much. I've learned so much. Thank you for sharing so much and being so generous with your life and your experience and your knowledge. And wow, I'm so inspired. And I'm going to send you messages.

Heather Vickery (59:33)
Oh, thanks. Yeah, I'm 51. I'll be 52 in December. Yeah.

Of course.

Yeah, thank you for inviting me

to be here and to be part of the conversation. honored. It was a treat.

Angeleaza (59:55)
course, course,

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